Do you know anyone running this set fully active?

Ive just read the manual from the USA site and the crossover frequencys are at

3.8Khz or 5Khz tweeters/mids
700 or 600 or 500Hz midrange to midbass.

Using the crossover the midbass to mid crossover is at the lowest frequency 500hz 18dB/octave.
this seems very high to me.

Do you know if the midrange driver will play lower to help improve imaging?
maybe crossed over at 250hz?

Thanks
Geoff.

If thats the F1 system i can`t imagine anyone running it active. A huge amount of the cash you`re going to shell out is spent on the crossover and this is what makes the differnce between running the standard ScanSpeak units as opposed to the Alpine comp set.
I know the ScanSpeaks are modified for Alpine as they are for Genesis but they are modified and designed to go with the crossovers, without the crossovers the mods don`t make a huge amount of difference, so my money would be to run the stock ScanSpeak drivers if you want to go active. Much cheaper
As always this is M.H.O :D

D

No one in the UK is currently running the SPX-Z's, active or passive. I have a three page report from the gentleman responsible for the SPX-Z's, written by him from Denmark last week when he was there finalizing details of our new SPX subwoofers (he works in USA) highlighting the differences between our speakers compared to standard Scanspeaks and also a well known competitor, and I can honestly say that our drivers are significantly different to stock scanspeaks or that of another Brand.

So money has been spent not only on the crossovers, but the drivers as well. Even the neodyimium magnet used on the SPX-Z's are different to other brands including scanspeak's originals. Unfortunately the content of this report is politically sensitive (particularly on this forum) and I dont want to upset anyone so i am not going to put it up for public consumption.

Geoff, I appreciate you are gathering alot of info regarding speakers at the moment, and if you want to email me with specific questions like the one above, I will forward it on your behalf to our design engineer in the states resonsible for SPX-Z's.

Regards

Atsu

Thanks Atsu,
I will sort an email out tomorrow. Basically the above question is all i want to know.
basically what will the Mid play and play well upto and down too.

I also agree with you ive had a look at the drivers and they are different (friend from the USA sent me pics). Its Far different to rivals like Xetec and genesis. I know for one the mid in the two ways uses a different magnet and also different chassis to the 15W4531G00 that others have based there drivers on. I also read the review in caraudio mag. I was very impressed how alpine have re-engineered to get the tweeter to work so well off axis from the plots in that review.
I also prefer the more restraint more stealth look of the alpines. No flash just class. Even more so if the badges come off the grills.

Dood-dk
ive researched this heavily and the midbass drivers are the biggest change.
In fact i actually have the 3way scanspeaks and i built a home 3way with them. Of cause ive tried them in car. To me the midbass 18W/4531G00 was thick and muddy, lacked kick, impact and control. The mids 12M4531G00 were great in kicks though i liked them alot.. the tweeters R2904/700000 on the otherhand were good on-axis but not that great off-axis you tend to loss some of the topend.
The alpines are not a great more cost wise than the Scanspeaks are direct from the UK distributor.

Ok...thanks for correcting me, i was given the impression that the mods on the speakers were done in conjuction with the design of the crossovers. I am aware that the drivers are different in many aspects, the point i was trying to get across was that these design changes were made specifically for the units to match the crossovers, thus rendering an active setup kind of pointless but i suppose if the drivers were that much better anyway.......
The price difference of the raw drivers V the comp set over here is a huge one.

To me the midbass 18W/4531G00 was thick and muddy, lacked kick, impact and control.

How did you have these mounted? Did they vent into the door or were they in a sealed pod? I`m asking because there are a couple of my customers considering these units and it would be nice to give them someone elses experience

D

Geoff,

The 18cm,15cm and 12cm drivers all share the following differences to the stock Scanspeaks and others.

1. The cone. This is a significant difference, and the cone used on our speakers are unique to Alpine. This was due to the original not meeting Alpine QC. The stock untreated carbon paper cone disintegrated after environmental QC testing, due to carbon paper's quality of absorbing moisture. Also, even well before the cone disintegrated, we found the SQ deteriorated as it absorbed moisture - frequency response,dynamics and resolution were all affected. Alpine resolved this problem by using a different cone material, wood fibre, then treating it to withstand the automotive environment. The wood fibre cones do not absorb moisture as readily as carbon paper, enabling us to use a light coating with a special glue. The coating affects the sound quality, and it took a long time to get this balance right. The wood fibre cone has strength and internal damping advantages as well. Also on point of QC, our speakers were modified in chassis/cone etc to meet our operational temperature tests.

2.The frame used in our speakers are of custom design, with integrated heatsink and cooling. The tooling costs of this isnt to be scoffed at - It was ALOT of money.

3. The motor, voice coil and spider compliance are of unique specification. However other Scanspeak customers change this too, so although stock Scanspeaks and other brands may look the same, they are different.

4. Tweeter - again unique to Alpine - we retooled the chamber for integrated terminals. Our front plate is custom, although other brands do this too. The phase plug was also shortened, to increase safety in a car crash, as it made little difference to the sound.

I know certain Carsound forum users fail to see the cost of the Alpine SPX-Z's, but our speakers are unique, as can be seen above. Add to this the AUTOMOTIVE crossovers which uses the finest components available, designed to meet the challenges of In-Car speaker locations instead of just on a flat baffle facing you, and I hope you can start to see why they are F#1 status speakers. Shame no one in England has bought any!

I hope the above is informative.

Regards

Atsu

I was given a guided tour of the Scanspeak factory a couple of weeks ago and the design engineer made a big point of showing the difference between the normal 2904 tweets and the Alpine version, shame they weren`t running a series of mids whilst we were there.
Those crossovers are HUGE though.and i particularly liked the design on the back of the magnets.....shame you can`t see them when they`re mounted :cheese:

D

How did you have these mounted? Did they vent into the door or were they in a sealed pod? I`m asking because there are a couple of my customers considering these units and it would be nice to give them someone elses experience

D
free air into a door. Door internal area 2cuft.
Same car ive used since 1990 so its a constant enviroment so i know its not the door fault. Its VERY heavy dynamated and has worked great with Focal utopia, rainbow pro, rainbow vanadium, DLS R6a, and many many others over the years.

I Tried them in 0.5cuft box and they sounded good lacked real bottom end but far more control, only problem is fitting a 0.5cuft box to a door.

if you like your midbass to play low and there great if you like your midbass to punch and kick then there not a good choice.

lots of people on elitecaraudio love them me i don't and funny enough when a car equipped with the 18W4531G00 from that forum entered a IASCA contest the judge was not a fan of the midbass either and he came back on the forum and asked for what to use to upgrade.

No one in the UK is currently running the SPX-Z's, active or passive.
I like that, exclusive :) unlike some other makes.

I thought Gordon Taylor of genesis Ice had a set?

I sent you an email.

Did I hear the phrase "SPX subwoofers"....

Atsu, Geoff, please God let this be a possibility for those of us who dont wanna chuck silly money at speakers???

And Geoff... good choice with the Alpines - I hope in some way I aided in that decision - but I doubt it... ;)

You may aid a bit more at some point i may want some more measurments of the hole were the speaker grill fits on your car for an idea of a door build. LOL. :lol:

The kick measurments were great worked out i can fit these if i want. So thanks so much mate. :cheese:

I have pics of the subs somewere. I will go try and find them.

EDIT
http://www.student.suu.edu/~faga8301/Alpine%20Brochure/PAGE-9.JPG

Im sure there on that page.

alpine swx-1042d ........When? Where? How much?.. :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: ......... How much?.. yikes :shake:


http://www.alpine-usa.com/company_info/press_release/010804_type-x.html

those type x subs look :cool: :cool: how much are they gona cost? i take it they'r SQ subs

It is great to see Alpine producing such great speakers.

How much are these? Cheaper than the Genny's I hope!

S

It is great to see Alpine producing such great speakers.
How much are these? Cheaper than the Genny's I hope!

yes by £750 :D
Im probably confusing everyone here by asking about all these speakers and brands but please remember i am researching for 3 different cars im involved with building this year not just mine.

How much are the Alpines then? The 3 ways that is :)

The 2 ways look very good vfm from CAD.

S

Si you have got them confused.
the ones on CAD are the SPX-F
the 3 ways (SPX-F17T) of these on CAD are £800 but now not available in the uk :(

the ones im asking about are the new F#1 speakers SPX-Z
SPX-Z18T 3 ways £2000 for 3way
SPX-Z15M 2 ways £800 single channel £1600 for stereo pair

Sorry :(

Still not cheap then!

Are they on a par with the Genny units does anyone know? Sound wise I mean ;)

Does still seem a lot of money just for speakers............but they are the most important part I guess.

S

Si
Well a few people say not on par BUT
ive read reviews of both the 2way and 3way alpine SPX-Z components were they have beaten Rainbow ref two ways (£3600 retail)
My only thought is that its more down to mouting and tuning for the final bit and the comparison some people have done and will coment on may have been a little biased to the gennys.
The £750 saving over the genesis and you get the grills/black steath look/screws/more versatile crossover/other mouting options the lot make them a good rival.

Indeed, puts my £400 front soundstage to shame cost wise ;)

S

You may aid a bit more at some point i may want some more measurments of the hole were the speaker grill fits on your car for an idea of a door build. LOL. :lol:

The kick measurments were great worked out i can fit these if i want. So thanks so much mate. :cheese:

I have pics of the subs somewere. I will go try and find them.

EDIT
http://www.student.suu.edu/~faga8301/Alpine%20Brochure/PAGE-9.JPG

Im sure there on that page.

I was very impressed with the Alpine Type X. Pole vent had me baffled for a while. single what looked to be a copper 7mm copper rod running across half way down the pole vent...

Look fwd to hearing them.

Hi Guys,
The Standard 18W4531 driver has far too low a Qt spec to give good midbass.
It is designed for small enclosures and won't work properly in free air.
We've modified ours to give good midbass in a free air application by numerous tweaks to the motor structure.
Even with these tweaks it's only suitable as a woofer for 3 way systems as the midrange isn't warm and open enough for 2 way applications. This is why we use the 15cm for 2 way systems - the mid character (of our modified unit) is much closer to that of the 12cm.

The cones do fall apart if they get damp, and will change with moisture if they aren't waterproofed. There are better ways than painting glue on the surface though, as this adds mass and makes the cone flex more. The result is a lack of dynamics and 'open-ness' in the midrange.

The cone material we use (once waterproofed) will play quite happily as water is poured onto the cone. We have left water sitting in the cone, then put full power through causing the water to spray in a very pretty pattern. All over my shirt.
The standard cone disintegrates about 2 seconds into this test.

Regarding crossover points, our 12cm mid will play from 250Hz upwards without problems. The Absolute 3 way crossover point is 300Hz @ 6dB/octave. We put 325W a side through this system with no signs of stress.

While we are on the subject of crossovers, I'd be a bit disappointed to see electrolytic caps and iron powder coils in the crossovers if I was shelling out 2 grand for a speaker system. We don't use electrolytics in our £ 150 system as they are not sonically good enough.

We have several cars with Absolute 2.3 systems in that are expected at Donny, one I know of running active and two with passive systems.

I'm assuming Alpine will have their demo car there, so this will be the ideal place to compare the systems.
Take your own CD's, listen a while and as I always recommend, let your ears be the judge.

Gordon

Gordon
Will you be brave enough ;)(jk) to offer your set for test to a quality car audio magazine for example in auto-hifi germany to put up against there already tested alpine SPX-Z18T and rainbow reference?

Gordon,
You may also want to read the absolute manual that comes with the 3ways as i spotted a few mistakes in it ;) not good on such a prestige product
Will you be including all asorted hardware including grills in future absolute systems?
Will you be offering a stealth version or just the bling bling pinch me crome finish?

reply from alpine about running the SPX-Z18T active

"This is the reply I got.

"Regarding the F#1 4" midrange, it will go down to about 250Hz safely and
150Hz if you use a steep filter (Fs is 72Hz, so you want to keep it about
2x that with a 12dB or better). It is a true midrange though, so I
wouldn't push it below that...and personally would cross it over at around
200-250. Imaging won't be a problem even if he crosses it higher, as long
as the woofer and mid are time aligned (or phase linked using the passive
network)

For the 7" woofer, I'm not sure what he means by 2cu.ft in freeair. Either
it's freeair, or 2cu.ft. sealed If he means the door volume is approx
2cu.ft., that's fine. He would get more punch out of it if it was sealed
in about 1cu.ft., but it should be quite fast and play very low as long as
he damps the door well and it isn't super leaky.

Hope that helps. Let me know if he has any more questions."

Hi Geoff,
Don't have a problem with offering them to any mag, but need to know they will be tested objectively and I've got some concerns with Auto Hifi offering 20 points for 'tweakability' when we've only got a tweeter level switch.

This will leave us about 19 points behind the Alpines (on tweakability) which have so
(far too IMHO) many adjustments. On this basis will we end up in the class below?

This needs to be clarified before the test is done, as I feel gimmicks don't count at the end of the day.

I've got absolutely no problem on a head to head SQ test though, hence the comments about Donny.
The best bit is you can listen for yourselves rather than relying on somebody elses opinion.

BTW we got 10+ / 10 in a Swedish review recently. A certain Swedish 'brand leader' was mysteriously absent despite 4 pages of advertising in the issue.........

Gordon

Gordon,
but they still publish SQ scores as well.
the last issue i got it had the complete listings.
for example
Alpine SPX-F18T Gesamt88/100, Klang 41/50, max. schallduck 17/20, Ausstattung 20/20, verarbeitung 10/10
Rainbow ref 260.30 Gesamt 84/100, Klang 46/50, max. schallduck 15/20, Ausstattung 13/20, verarbeitung 10/10

So its easy to see which scores more for SQ.
Most systems including the rainbows don't have the tweekability of the alpines but it can be seen from the rest of the scores what comes out best for SQ.

I also think tweekability is a good thing in a passive if you are going to go passive as all cars are different and i know of at least 1 absolute owner whos having loads of trouble getting his system to sound right due to the lack of ajustment on the passives.

I would rather go active every time its so much easier to ajust and get setup right for the perticular car,

As you know alot of sound traits can be tuned (eq/crossover/enclosure/surrounding enviroment) so comparing one cars sound to another is not the best way to pick you speakers unless you have an identical car and system tuning cabability.

I will be coming along anyway for a listen but i will not be picking my speakers that way.

Hi Ballie,
The review will happen before too long......

Don't agree with adjustability on passives. The more adjustments there are the more chance there is it will be set up wrong.

For every person that gets it right another 99 won't.

I believe it is better to make an excellent crossover from top grade parts that give excellent results when the speakers are installed within guidelines, rather than trying to make a technically wondrous piece that no one can set up correctly.


The install I expect you are referring to has mids in kickwells and tweets on the A pillars.
This will never give top class results with a high end 3 way system, and this is why we recommend the Mid and tweet are located within 10cm, rather than 60cm+ apart.

This spacing can be partially compensated for with time alignment but the real answer is to mount the drivers together.
The mid and tweet can be located some distance from the woofer as wavelengths at 300 Hz are much longer than at 6K so integration is much easier.

Running active doesn't allow phase correction of the drivers, and my experience has been that most active cars sound a bit clinical, lacking in warmth and naturality. Technically great but not as musical.


While the presentation between different cars will vary, it should provide an indication of what is possible with that particular system.
No amount of EQ or installation capability will make a poor speaker sound good, or a good one sound excellent.

A bad install can obviously make good products sound worse, but if the Manufacturer or Importer can't set up a demo car to give it's best, then they aren't going to be able to help their customers get good results, so I feel it is fair to judge them by their demo car.

I'd certainly prefer to trust my own ears over those of a German Journalist.

If I'm going to be listening to the system every day I want to know what it's like first hand, in a similar environment to the one it's going to be installed into.

Gordon

Hi Gordon.

Do you have any on/off axis response charts on the absolutes, bl vs. excursion and any Klippel data results?

Checked out the components while I was at CES, Crossovers are defiantly awesome in design and component grade.

Thanks.

While we are on the subject of crossovers, I'd be a bit disappointed to see electrolytic caps and iron powder coils in the crossovers if I was shelling out 2 grand for a speaker system. We don't use electrolytics in our £ 150 system as they are not sonically good enough.



As this is obviously directed to our x-over's which we are extremely proud of, just want to add that in the schematic provided in the OM, that electrolytics are only used in parallel with the woofer, and they are the highest grade available. To try to use anything but electrolytic in parallel at low freqencies would not only be of no sonic benefit, but would also be 10x the size and uninstallable. All series inductors are heavy gauge air core, and all series capacitors are the highest grade metalized poly available (160V XPP). We do not use electrolytics or iron core in series for obvious reasons. The use of the term "iron core" while technically correct, does not state the whole case. We are using ultra high grade Wicon "powder core" only for the larger parallel inductors on which have a very low DCR and consistant very high saturation point. Calling them "iron core" and to put them in the same class as low end rod style iron cores, couldn't be farther from the truth of what is actually used.

Hi Atsu,
Will you be bringing a demo car to Donny?

I'm aware there are different core materials for inductors and the higher grades are certainly better sonically, however any cored inductor will be less linear than an air cored equivalent.

Components in the parallel path will still affect the SQ so my comments are still valid. We managed to get a large value capacitor (of 66uF) into our crossovers using Polypropylene caps. A Polyester cap will be smaller again so would have fitted in the casing you have with 1/10th the dissipation factor.

Hi Mr Singh,
Thanks for your kind words re the crossovers. The on & off axis response curves are in the manual that comes with the system.

These are useful to a point, but the measured response of the 18cm extends to 7K relatively evenly, yet it doesn't have SQ suitable for midrange.( not by our standards anyway)

The coated cone drivers measure very closely to the uncoated drivers, but sound dead, 'phasey' and lifeless compared to the uncoated drivers. Don't take my word for it, ask Panch, Rambino or Carlo - they've all heard them side by side.

Tech specs are useful to get you in the ball park, but ears need to be the final judge.

We tweaked these drivers in a number of areas so they would give the performance we were looking for in an automotive environment.

The crossover was then built around them to get the best results, using top grade components so there was no loss of SQ.

Developing by numbers is like painting by numbers - you get an o.k. result but it won't be a masterpiece.

Gordon

I'm staying well out of this one... however, a head-to-head would be very interesting indeed, it's just a shame no-one in the UK is running the Alpines... at the end of the day, I have found on too many occasions that good on paper does always equate to good in-situ. I trust my own ears...;)

Panch

Wot he said...........nuff said

Alot more can be expanded on this, but unfortunately we dont have a way to demo the SPX-Z's at the moment, which I admit is a weakness. However, our product range is huge - hence our demo vehicles have to have a more general range rather than F#1. Gordon, do you actually have our final production drivers? Or is it just one of yours with a coating/non-coating?

I managed to have a listen to both the Genesis and the Alpine sets at CES and to my ears it was the Genesis car that sounded flat and boring were the alpine seemed to be more lively. This of cause could be down to system tuning.
Having looked at what's been said above to me it looks like alpine spent a lot more time and money on redesigning the entire drive units. The Genesis set it must be said has the wow factor but you seem to get a lot less for your money.
The question is are the Genesis set really worth an extra £750 over the Alpines? To my ears no.

PC.

Alot more can be expanded on this, but unfortunately we dont have a way to demo the SPX-Z's at the moment, which I admit is a weakness.

You could always sell a set to Geoff at cost im sure he would be happy to demo them to prospective buyers for you if he got them cheap.

I managed to have a listen to both the Genesis and the Alpine sets at CES and to my ears it was the Genesis car that sounded flat and boring were the alpine seemed to be more lively. This of cause could be down to system tuning.
Having looked at what's been said above to me it looks like alpine spent a lot more time and money on redesigning the entire drive units. The Genesis set it must be said has the wow factor but you seem to get a lot less for your money.
The question is are the Genesis set really worth an extra £750 over the Alpines? To my ears no.

PC.

How bizzare, I have heard from two different sources one a client of the manufacturing company and the other a friend of the engineer who does the prototype builds that the opposite is true.

This would be good as at least everyone could hear them,in a A/B conparison in a car,but as Paul has demonstrated it's all down to what we prefere......
Atsu give us all a chance to compare please.
This seems to going down the route of my product is better than yours and I really don't feel that's ness with products of this type.
Both companies are tring to give us home audio quaility product/sound for our cars so rather argue over plus's and minus's.....I'd rather say well done gentlemen keep it up
Just my 10c worth

I dont know which part of Clio Paul's statement Rambino found the "opposite being true", but I think it is safe to say that we have spent more time and alot more money redesigning the drive units. Our drivers (except the tweeter) are not just slightly modified stock units, but custom made using new tooling. Our cone material (wood fibre) is unique. As regards sound, well that is in the end subjective - but I also have technical info which would back Clio Paul's claims.

However - This seems to going down the route of my product is better than yours and I really don't feel that's ness with products of this type..

I agree Carlo, this thread is going down that way. I have loads (and I mean loads) of other info which I havent put up,but I dont feel this is the place to post it. Those that have read it agrees.

I wish I had the means to demo the SPX-Z's, but this isnt so easy for me to do. They are not all standard sizes, and I cant justify having them installed in my car.

In the end they are both fantastic speakers, and Alpine will believe ours is better and Genesis will think their's is better.

I'm not sure if there is much point carrying on, because as Gordon says, ears should be the final judge, and we accept that it is a weakness on our part that we cant demonstrate our speakers at the moment.

Atsu
feel free to send me any info on these speakers i will keep it strictly confidential if thats what you prefer.

now onto this threads latest discusion.
As for the genesis v alpine v rainbow refs. Will make some interesting comparisons if the same magazine has tested them all. I respect the type of views of car audio and electronics USA did of the alpine v rainbow and the type of review that auto-hifi germany did of the alpines v rainbows sets.

As a personal note im not sure if its far to compare them as has been done here especially when price is took into account.

for example as you guys know ive been interested in these sets since i first heard about them so you know ive done some digging. On price alone the genesis are a lot more expensive IMO.

For example the 3ways
The genesis retail for £2750
The alpines retail for £1999.99
So theres £750 difference at full retail.

But as you know ive done some digging and after months of promising dealers not to say about how much they have offered as deals

What you really pay the real price difference in real life is
£1087.50 cheaper in favour of the alpines.
In my opinion thats not to be sniffed at as a difference.

For the ICE mad men out there in equipment terms rather than money terms you could buy at discount level.
Alpine SPX-Z18T + a Genesis DM & a DMX for the price of the genesis absolute 3ways.
Thats not a small amount when you think of it like that.

So in real life the Genesis absolutes are really in a different price band to the alpines IMHO.
(unless Gordon will sell me some at cost :shiny: )

Now as i know Gordon thinks i sometimes bash his products im not. Im a HUGE genesis fan especially of there amps. And also just so the speakers don't look expensive compared to competition lets compare them to another rival the rainbow reference,

Now the rainbow reference 3ways retail for £5600
genesis absolutes retail for £2750
So now in that comparison the genesis looks like a REAL bargin at half the price of the rainbows.
even after big discounts the genesis are FAR cheaper than the rainbows.

So the big question is whos is better. Who knows!
basically unless all sets are in the same type of setup/locations/car and tuned by the same person it will be hard to compare them fairly. Unless you get them tested side by side in a controled enviroment test.

At the end of the day if moneys no object then you can choose any set you like but if like 99% of people cost is a factor then its something you have to consider as the extra cost between these sets cannot be called a small amount.

I think this thread has run its course and until somebody does a blind A/B test there is not a lot more to be said.

I will close to prevent a tit for tat specification war that seems to be emerging. ;)

Mike