'ello Chaps and Chappesses

A couple of mates and me are "doing" a project car. It's a small hatch that will end up with a very, very, very silly engine and drivetrain with the view of utterly suprising anything that is silly enough to think it behaves like it looks (ie *****) on the road, track or drag strip.

I want to drop a silly loud sound system into it, but haven't really done the SPL thing before...

I've got a spare rockford power 15 from about 8 years ago (!), and a couple of spare amps, but am wanting to make this thing offensively loud so will probably end up buying new stuff. A bass cube is spare, as is a 215ix eq.

The challenge: most of the heavy stuff *must* be removable for track days. Want to make over 150dB from it, just to pee off a mate who competed in '96 and couldn't crack 150, although he was in the <300W class...

So, clean slate, low budget, what would you recommend? I don't care too much for quality, just want massive amounts of output that'll kill budgies at 200 yards with some hint of musicality that shows that it's not a one note wonder.

Any decent high power amps for about 300 quid? I can get a 1.6kW Soundstream tarantula for about that...

The boot area isn't huge, sorta Fiesta sized, so i'm wondering what will give the most output for the volume available. Single 15, twin 15, ??? and in what configuration? What power do I realistically need to chuck at this stuff too?

Sorry to ask such an open question - I throw myself on the mercy of the daemon gods of total harmonic distortion and ask for your advice!

Cheers,
Nick.

Cheap subs?

Magnat XTC 15" (4ohm SVC) :) Couple 4 of those with a cheap amp (Say a Pro Plus Nemesis) :D and you've got a loud system! :D:D

Or if you only want two, then use an older RF Power 2 chan, those make silly power into 2 ohms bridged.

Should be able to do it. Mount everything to the box and its easy to take out!

Cheers Migraine. I was thinking more of something slightly more expensive and going for less cone area, but don't know what would give me more output.

Are multiple drivers with smaller air behind em louder than a single driver with the right box?

I guess from the popularity of walls that the answer is "yes", but I'd be more tempted to go for something from RE, or whatever, and dump lots of power in to the box...

Whaddaya reckon?
Ta,Nick.

Hi there chap... I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think your gonna be able to create an install, that will push over 150dB and be removeable easily... especially with that sort of budget fella, the Magnat XTC 15" definitely don't be up to it i'm afraid :(

150dB is a pretty damn good result, a bir of a landmark value that kinda represents breaking into damn loud SPL territory... I'm just off to lunch, will see what I can think of and post later :)

Ignore the 300 quid budget - that was just an indication of what I was thinking I could get amp-wise. I do want to keep it cheap and cheerful though if at all possible.

Am I right in thinking that amplification isn't really that much of an issue, as I can pick up something that'll melt a nail in seconds for what is relatively little money, and that I need to get the setup just right?

I know just how much pain getting 150dB can be, as my mate who was competing ended up with 2 seats and 4 15s in two tri-chamber laaarge boxes but still missed out by a couple of gnat's cocks. He broke 149 but couldn't get 150 :( . "Back in the day" I think 96 was the year that someone in the UK finally did break 150 but could be wrong.

"Removable" is essential, but "easily removable" isn't. As long as it doesn't take the three of us more than half an hour or so then we're happy.

The interior will be utterly stripped, so there's no worries about damaging trim panels, or them getting in the way. We can weld supports for the kit wherever we need them... With this in mind, I reckon something should be possible. At the least, any extra batteries and definitely the box should be removable. We can probably live with the weight of the amps and mountings.

I won't be able to add much sound deadening for weight reasons again. Will this seriously knacker the ability to get SPL?

Thanks again, and cheers for helping out an SPL idiot :D,
Nick.

Perhaps I ought to lose the 150dB aim, and just say I want street bass in abundance :D

Does that make it any easier, or am I still pee'ing in the wind?

the Magnat XTC 15" definitely don't be up to it i'm afraid :(


wouldnt be too far off rich - remember the erskine designed 145db eminence bass pumps box and baz's magnat xtc's x 2? ;)

hmmm..

well two SE12s ported with a nemesis powering em would be bonkers.
crystal comp12's also get a thumbs up. can u fit around 4^ft in a fiesta tho?

if not maybe, 3 crystal 12's sealed with a nemesis.

just re-read ur post, is this for streetbass? or spl?

It ain't a fiesta :D . It's possibly the least likely "hot hatch" you could think of... A Subaru Justy. But, if we get it right, it should go quite well.

We should be able to get 4 cu ft in there, maybe a tad more - pics of someone elses' project here - http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/425339

My intention is not to compete in SPL, but to be loud enough to be classed as "loud" at either events, or track days, or drag strips, or just on the street. For the hell of it, I'd like to break the 150dB barrier using the SPL measuring rules but that's just vanity. The real reason for doing it is to have a laugh, give people a laugh and make something offensively loud that will also be offensively fast...

you have a modded d300hc and a 9515 dont you? ;)

The Pioneer SPL 12s go lous and are cheap, you might manage to squeeze 4 of them in if you take up a bit of back seat space too. Maybe a single RE HC or XXX 18 instead.

I'd say go for a PP Nemesis or two for amplification but make sure your power supply is up to it, you can pick them up for £200 each easily enough.

i wouldnt bother with the nemesis - get yourself on ebay us ang pick yourself up a pair of lanzar d3000m's ;)

Bear in mind that streetbass and SPL are VERY different - decide what you want, as its likely that you'll need different boxes for each (or at the very least, a port plug system)

I'd say go for a PP Nemesis or two for amplification but make sure your power supply is up to it, you can pick them up for £200 each easily enough.

Jamie, I don't think a second battery would really be possible in this situation, with it needing to be removable in a short space of time, which is a shame, as I do think it'd be kinda important

To keep things simple, i'd say your best bet would be 1 big-arse amp, and a jumbo box with a couple of ported 12s in there or a nice 15" that'll take full power from your amp

But I can have my whole install out (by myself, including yellow top) and SAFE in 45 mins...

So I reckon a battery would be a good idea.

You could use the stupid quick release terminals that Peugeot and Citroen insist on fitting to their positive leads to make it quicker to take out too!

You must both be quicker installers/uninstallers than me then... maybe I just like a lot of tea in the process :)

If your confident you could take a 2nd battery out within the time you require, i'd definitely reccomend you go for it :)

I reckon a second battery (or more) is essential, given the world of pain that the rest of the car is going to be in :D

Nope, I don't have a D300 or 9515 or owt like that I'm afraid...

This lanzar d3000m - 3kw class D? I reckon a class D would be a good idea for efficiency given that our alternator might not be the most important aspect of the engine bay. I'll check it out :D

We don't have back seats, the car is empty :D so we can play around a bit. Should be able to get more than 4 cu ft in there thinking about it, but lifting anything too big could be "interesting"...

I've obviously missed the difference between SPL and street bass. Really, I want it to be loud outside, and over 150dB on the SPL stakes. Is that the basshead equivalent of being sent for a glass hammer, or tartan paint? ;) Is the difference in the tuning of the box?

My daily car has a Diamond M6 12" running off around 400W in a sealed box just under 1 cu ft. That sounds good, goes sorta low, and makes me grin. This project needs to have a LOT more :D

Cheers,
Nick.
(lapsed basshead - back in training)

SPL = high tuning.. almost NOT bass, its higher than real low bass. You need the high tuning as its 'louder' to mics, and therefore gets you your score.

Streetbass, the bass that carries over long distances is LOW, ie NOT SPL :)

You will definately need a port interchanger if you wish to do both.

install is gonna be a main isssue with that kind of buget plus you want to take the audio out on track days IMO i dont think you have any room for error especially with the new mics. IMHO i dont think you can do it on the new mics but you have a good chance on the old ones

Right, let's can the SPL aim initially as a bad idea and just keep it plain loud and offensive :D

I'm assuming I want a large ported box of some sort... What's the current flavour of the month/year regarding box design :D ?

If I'm asking people to give away secrets, then my apologies!

bigger the better IMO

Lots of cone area and power.

IE as many Magnat XTC 15s as you can get in the car! 4 x magnats + 1 x Pro plus nemesis would be very good (plus suitable powersupply upgrades). (Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but they are a good example). Oh, and LOW tuning is very important - 29hz to 33hz works very well.

You CAN DO streetbass from a single small sub in the right box, but it just wont be very loud.

If you want more, then look at better subs/amps.

You want a nice big box, tuned to about 26-33 hz and lots of power for the subs. For streetbass I would go for a single XXX18 with dual 2 ohm VC and a Nemesis on each coil giving it about 2400w, this would come in at about £1k for the whole lot including cables etc which may be a bit much though.......

Ok dude, I think we're getting into the thick of it now, and starting to get some idead of what you would like...



So, what I think it comes down to is budget... definitely think there is a capacity to get some serious bass into your vehicle, and I think 150dB or there abouts could be done, and the kit could be removable pretty quickly... the only consideration now would be cost. Spending more = louder at this stage, and thats pretty much all there is to it.

I'd be inclined to pick up a pair of 12" PPI subs, absolute blinders 1000WRMS a piece, and port em low, then look at picking up a nice big 2500WRMS amp. Not the cheapest of options, but i'd be in no doubt this would do what you want, scaring small children and demolishing small buildings alike, awesome stuff, but it does come at a price :)

The React Systems Escort hit 148ish with a pair of the Pioneer 12s which can be had for about £100 each if you shop around if it needs to be cheap. A pair of them and 1 Nemesis would be very loud and less than £500 too :D

But Jamie that would be SPL..

You dont need great sub strengh for SPL (as its only a split second as AFAIK coils dont heat up too much).

For streetbass, you need reliability, and I wouldnt trust the Pioneer cheapies with a Nemesis on their backs!!!!

They did streetbass pretty well when I heard them at MK1 and wired to show 2 ohms they'd be getting 600w each which I'm sure they'd handle fine.

Fair enough, just wouldnt do it personally! :)

They did streetbass pretty well when I heard them at MK1 and wired to show 2 ohms they'd be getting 600w each which I'm sure they'd handle fine.

Bear in mind Jamie, that these subs are now falling apart with the abuse they've been getting...

There we go then :D

OK, OK, you win :mad:

Dales Magnat XTC didn't last too long either though did it Chris :p

It lasted around 6 months, which wasnt too bad!!

Bear in mind that was the 10" model, which has a lower power handling than the 15 :p

For the record the 10" can take 180 nominal, and the 15" can take 350.

You want a nice big box, tuned to about 26-33 hz and lots of power for the subs. For streetbass I would go for a single XXX18 with dual 2 ohm VC and a Nemesis on each coil .......

hmmm......good in theory but......

id do

4 x magnat xtc 15's from cad = 500, if u ask nicely, maybe even less

cone area of 4 15's with 2k (perfect for the nemesis BTW as it pushes near 2k@1ohm and the XTC's are SVC 4ohm, so can be wired to a perfect 1ohm ;) :D )

no matter how good an x x x may be, cone area wise it cannot compete with 4 magnats.

And how may I ask, do you fit 4 Magnat 15s, or a single 18" XXX into the 4cuft boot of a fiesta, +battery?

Cone area of 1 Magnat XTC 15 = 120cm^2
Cone area of 1 XXX 18 = 143.6cm^

So 4 Magnats = 480cm^2
1 XXX = 143.6cm^2

XMAX of XTC 1500 = 1.2cm
XMAX of XXX 18 = 3.8cm

480x1.2 = 576cm^3 of air moved by 4 Magnats
143.6x3.8 = 545.7cm^3 of air moved by 1 XXX

There's really not much in it once you take XMAX into accoung and I'd expect the RE to drop lower a bit better and have better SQ too, plus it would take up a lot less space!

And how may I ask, do you fit 4 Magnat 15s, or a single 18" XXX into the 4cuft boot of a fiesta, +battery?

The inside of the car will be gutted so there's a bit more space than normal and it can probably encroach on the back seat area too. Plus I assume the box can be a bit taller than the parcel shelf would be.

Rich, an 18 is only 3 inches taller than your sub so I don't see any problems with it fitting really, 4 15s on the other hand...........

Cheers guys - seems to be two camps almost...

4 15s or a single 18 seem to be the recommendations. I'm more tempted by the single 18 to be honest, as I think it would be a fair bit lighter...

As mentioned above, space is not too much of a problem as we haven't got an interior :)

Anyone used the Lanzar D3000M? Looks damn cheap!
Cheers,
Nick.

The off the shelf XXX is D2 ohm so the amp needs to put out about 2k at either 1 or 4 ohms but IIRC for an extra £25 you can have D4 or quad 1.4 ohm coils instead.

I've never used the Lanzar amps but you could also look at some of the SPL Dynamics ones too.

Bear in mind that with an XXX you can use multiple amps since it has multiple coils - a large 2kw + amp is often expensive.

You could (say) get a Q1/D2 and use two RF bd amps (500bd, 1000bd, 1500bd), one per pair of coils.. two 500bds would be around 1.5kw.. so you can go up from that! :)

Baz Weller used (you might like to search for this) two Fusion Jonah monoblocks on his XXX 18 in his fiesta.. THAT looked evil.

Amps to look out for:
Viper 2500D (2 ohm use)
Directed 1100D (1 ohm use - you'd need a D2, but one amp isnt THAT great - a D1 would be better if you can have two amps :D)
RF bd series (2 ohm use)
I'm sure the others will add some more.

I really think space will be an issue here

J, I wasn't takling about an 18" having difficulty fitting in as far as size goes, but in that it will need a mahoooosive box, as will 4 X 15s, which is gonna make it difficult to take in, and go out... a 14ft-odd ported box for the 15s, with 18mm MDF all around + bracing isn't gonna be fun to put in, and take out of the car

I stand by my idea of a pair of heavyweight 12s :)

What about a pair of 15s... would that sort of box be possible?

I should think so, as long as this is turning into a no-wall install, and that initially constraining 4ft constraint goes out of the window ;) :D

Great :)

This is definitely a no-wall install! The other two would kill me, plus it'd be impossible to move :D

Sound, we could do with a pretty firm budget on how much you wanna outlay for the subs, and an amp to drive em though...

Mate make sure you get them to upgrade TB3 if they ever get the engine out / start taking out old wiring. Just a thought as you mentioned theyre gonnna be sup-ing up the engine.

:cool:

Peace

Well, the budget is questionable :D . It needs to be pretty small as I have a new in-car noise making machine - hence the "who's the daddy" tagline. He's only 16 weeks old, but I'd swear he can hit 150dB himself :)

I'm sorely tempted by a Lanzar D3000M for $330 from Lanzar themselves... I get the feeling that I don't need to worry about spending out massively on an amp, which is quite gobsmacking.

Sub-wise, I'd have to be thinking of around £400-£500 max.

(Mental observation: Christ, this has moved on - a couple of years back if you'd asked for a 3KW amp, you'd have ears ringing from the laughter... And the cost would have been crippling!)

The big 3 will definitely be done - cheers for the reminder tho! To be honest, I don't think there's a huge amount of justy going to be left at all when this is all done and dusted ;) .

For that budget (maybe pushed a little bit, but i'm sure CAD would knock a bit off with you buying 2) you'd be wanting a pair of these:-

http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=2910

I'd be confident of em taking close enough to all of the power that Lanzar will throw out... top of the range Precision Power subbage there :)

http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/images/dcx15.jpg

Port a pair of those, and i'd be confident of you pushing above 150dB... and doing great things in IASCA IDBL is you wanted too :eek:

NEMESIS LINK (CLICK ME) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3070606412&category=4950&rd=1)

NEMESIS LINK (CLICK ME) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3070606646&category=4950&rd=1)

:)

Are those your auctions B:M?

One of those amps would be perfect for what you want Chiark... running a pair of those PPI 15" subs... the Dual 4ohm versions :)

Are those your auctions B:M?

One of those amps would be perfect for what you want Chiark... running a pair of those PPI 15" subs... the Dual 4ohm versions :)

they are indeed Mr Blaydon!

One wordof warning about those DM3000's... I've read on US forums that the reliablitity is rather dodgy, but then again the nemesis amps can be if you don't keep the voltage high enough. So have a read of a few american forums before you do splash the cash. To be honest I'd go for the nemesis amps purely because they're a known quantity over here.

Cheers all, there's a lot to be said for buying locally, and from someone trusted on the boards :D

I'll hang fire for a bit on buying, as there's no rush, but at least I know the amplification ain't a problem. I honestly can't believe how much power is available for silly money nowadays!

The sub setup still confuses the snot out of me. I think 15s may sound better than 18s, but then again I am basing this on old listening.

Any soundoffs / meets coming up, and anyone with a nice street bass setup going along :D ?

Cheers,
Nick.

There's a meet in Leicester next Sunday (18th) with 30+ cars coming, so it should be good. Check out the events section for other meets.

To be honest I'd go for the nemesis amps purely because they're a known quantity over here.

a nemesis more reliable than a d3000m? im not convinced.

if the budget for a sub is up to 500, then its a simple task.

take 1 x d3000m or better, take a pair od 1800d Lanzar's or 2 x 1200d Lanzars - they are cheap and more reliable than the d300m which tends to be a lottery rack amp - some users have said its a good amp and serves well. others have had warranty claims all day long.

check the voice coil config and if its suitable and will make the best of the d's output, then take bill's dd9515 from the classifieds and you have a banging spl system for under 500. one single sub/amp solution, simple as :) :raz:

i will admit the lanzar wont be able to set your world alight in terms of sound quality, (but then again you arent really looking at SQ when you want 150db are you!), but in terms of pure power for the money, it really cannot be beaten. check on ebay us too as opposed to getting it directly from lanzar if you want to save evn more.

if you dont like the lanzar, a visonik 900xd will also do something over 1.5kRMS, although i did hear there seems to be a lotto about these - you can get one which is solid and unbreakable and will serve you well or you may get one which will smoke as soon as its powered up............bit of gabmble, but if u get a good one, you will be happy :)

I'd go for some big ass class D's & this
http://194.154.162.19/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/ICE/Sub_top.sized.jpg

http://194.154.162.19/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/ICE/Sub_bottom.sized.jpg

£250 + we work out a way to get it too you!

I'm up in the northeast btw.

When its been in my car which hasnt been much due to me drag racing my car its been at car shows & it will do what you want no probs!

I had the sub in a box & my amps etc on the back of my rear seat unbolt the two & lift em out & ur set to race.
I have a roll cage now so id have to redo the whole lot & I'm doing more & more racing so I've gone for a 12"JL for easy removal & space (There might be a fuel cell where the sub box was :wow: )

BillB

oooo, looks gooooooood :D

Sorry for not replying sooner, up to my neck in work. I'll have to pass for the moment, but thanks for the suggestion :D