View Full Version : Setting up cross-overs


EF MAX
10-08-2003, 01:07 PM
This is a frequently asked question.

To start with you have the choice of either passive cross-overs or active cross-over.

Crossovers hold a very important role in loudspeaker design and operation. Each loudspeaker transducer, whether it is dynamic, electrostatic, planar magnetic, piezo, ribbon, or plasma is capable of producing only a limited range of frequencies.

Even if a specific transducer is capable of producing sound at a given range, the efficiency, power, and response may be severely limited. In response, speaker systems are built using multiple transducers optimized for a specific frequency range, such that the system as a whole covers the entire audio spectrum.

Passive Crossovers direct the power from the incoming signal to the appropriate transducer by its frequency response characteristics. By nature, the crossover is a set of electrical filters. Crossovers also serve to protect loudspeaker transducers.

A high power bass note can destroy an expensive silk dome dynamic tweeter, even if it is not capable of reproducing the sound. The crossover prevents unwanted signals from reaching the transducer.

In audio, there are a couple of different passive cross-over designs/theories. A passive cross-over is a one using only passive components to filter out signals. These passive components are capacitors and coils.

The two most common design/theories are Butterworth and Linkwitz/Riley. By constructing cross-over networks using a number of coils and capacitors, we can achieve different cross-over slopes. The slope is at what rate we filter out the signal. The most common slopes are 6, 12, 18 or 24dBs/octave. A high slope means the signal is quickly reduced in amplitude and therefore will be more quickly inaudible.

http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/images/6db.gif

A two-way crossover will split one full range signal into two signals, one that contains low frequencies with filtered out high frequencies; we call it low-pass signal.

http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/images/12db.gif

For two speakers that will both need filtered signals, we design two-way cross-overs.

The other contains higher frequencies with filtered out low frequencies, called high-pass signal. (Well, in fact, nothing can be filtered out, it can only be reduced in amplitude at a selected ratio/slope).

Of course there are also three way and four way passive cross-overs, and these are more complex.
Because the crossover is after the power amplifier, the crossover dissipates a great deal of power.

The greater cutoff slope, the higher number of components needed and therefore even more power is wasted. Also, the tolerances of these large, high power parts are very high, which means the values are not very accurate. This leads to improperly tuned filters.

Once constructed and installed, these filters are almost impossible to change, and therefore, the system cannot be tweaked. Sometimes, L-pads are included which allow attenuation of high frequency drivers, but this just leads to more wasted power.

So many components also lead somewhat harsh and non-linear phase distortion that varies by frequency. The biggest problem with passive crossovers is that they isolate the drivers from the amplifier.

This causes two problems.
First, the impedance of the loudspeaker varies with frequency because it is a reactive device (dynamic speakers are inductors, ESL's are capacitors).

A passive crossover is designed for a resistive load that doesn't change properties due to frequency. With the load impedance changing, the response of the crossover changes, and falls rapidly away from the designed specification. The only remedy is to include an impedance-correcting network across the loudspeaker element, which serves only to waste more power and possibly introduce another source of distortion.

The second problem with isolating the loudspeaker element from the amplifier is the dampening effects of the amplifier are lost.

When a dynamic speaker cone moves, it creates inertia. This inertia will cause the cone to continue moving, even after the signal has reversed direction in a distortion causing condition called overshoot.

In order the correct this, the amplifier must supply more immediate power to keep the voltage tracking.
However, the inductors and capacitors in the crossover can store energy and effectively decouple the loudspeaker element from the amplifier. Now the amplifier does not know if the loudspeaker is accurately tracking.

This destroys transient response in dynamic speakers and has sever effects on ESL efficiency and quality.
Active Crossovers are inserted between your head unit and your amplifiers. They split the signal, sending high frequencies to one amplifier, and the low frequencies to another amplifier.

An active crossover is called active because it needs it's own power supply. An Active Crossover can be the solution to almost every problem that passive crossovers possess. Active crossovers are filters, like passive crossovers. However, active crossovers work at audio line levels before the main power amplifiers.

The output from the crossovers are sent to individual amplifiers, which amplify each frequency range independently and then connect directly to the speaker elements.

Active crossovers can be constructed without expensive and inaccurate inductors, and all the parts are small, low power, cheap and most importantly, accurate.

The advantages over passive crossovers are enormous. Because they have power, they can compensate for insertion loss.

Also, since the circuit treats all frequencies the same, there is no delay or phasing issues associated with them.

Since the output is to an amplifier, the impedance is constant. This is important also because it is very easy to create a multiple pole filter with very sharp and precise response by using multiple op-amps in a chain while maintaining a steady input and output impedance.

The properties of active crossovers can be easily changed, and depending on design, the change can be while listening to the system. This offers much greater control and customization.

Because the loudspeaker elements are directly connected to the amplifiers, the dampening factor of the amplifiers is not lost, and no power is wasted.

Even the amplifiers have an easier load because any single amplifier only has to amplify a specific range of frequencies, offering even more customization. The only tradeoff is that more than one stereo amplifier is needed or at least one amplifier channel per frequency range per channel.

Digital Options. Active crossovers still use reactive components, and therefore non-linearities in phase and/or frequency response exist. Digital technology comes to the rescue with Digital Signal Processors, capable of filtering and processing audio signals in the digital domain. The proliferation of digital technology has created a new way to process audio signals.

A Digital Signal Processor is a very specialized computer with the single task of performing rapid real time calculations on a signal. Because the processor relies on a software algorithm to work it is almost infinitely flexible.

The two issues of concern are digital conversion quality and processing delay. Although digital audio is claimed to be superior to analog systems, this is not always true.

A digital audio signal alone does not degrade in quality, but conversion to and from analog and the use of improper mathematical operators can seriously effect the quality.

Also the processor does not render an output immediately, there is an associative lag, which is increased by the time it takes to move signals to and from the digital domain.

Therefore, the use of digital technology must be questioned on four aspects: use, effects, efficiency, ease.
It’s a personal choice in respect to which road you walk down, but once you understand the differences you also need to understand where you start in respect to setting these things up.

I work from a simple starting point. Take your midrange speaker as this starting point. This speaker is important when it comes to creating a good soundstage and a good image within your stereo sound.

This speaker needs to cover as wide a range of frequencies as possible, be light and fast in it’s response and be as clear as possible when it is working hard.

I have chosen a midrange speaker in my car that is on a cast alloy chassis, has a “Hexidiamond” type cone that is 100mm in size and handles 50wrms. It operates from 55Hz – 5KHz.

The trick in choosing a midrange speaker is to pick the best you can afford,, in my car it is one of the smallest speakers in the set-up but it is also the most expensive set of speakers in my set-up, more expensive than my subs.

In choosing a midrange speaker it’s off axis reproduction is an important consideration. I prefer to work within one octave, if possible, of the quoted frequency range.

So in my case I have set my cross-over points at 125Hz and 3.5KHz. I do this as I know that the speaker can operate within this range with no problems.

I believe that this “band-passed” range of frequencies is the most important decision, and that it can be kept simple by working to the above. And the above can be done either passively or actively though active is more easily reached from a simplicity point of view.

Now that the midrange is sorted, finding a set of tweeters that can go down one octave below the mid range cross-over point,, and in my case this is a cross-over point of 3.5KHz, should be easy as most tweeters go down to about 2.5KHz or less.

If your midrange unit will play higher then this is also cool,, you cab balance this with tweeters that do not have to come down so low.

The same can be said of your mid-bass unit, covering the lower stuff should be important at least down to about 60Hz,, most mid-bass units will play high up into the midrange frequencies but this is not needed within this equationa as collectively you have all the frequencies covered and each set of speakers is working within their own ideal range.

The integration issues that so many people refer to should then be sorted and a smooth sounding front stage is now easier to reach..

If a set-up is active and if there are are gain settings for each channel, then with the help of an RTA or SPL meter, each speakers dB output can be set so as to be equal to the micophone from a centralised position within your car.

This last point is critical if you want to reach a near perfect image with most types of music.. Sometimes a little bit of tweaking in the EQ department is required as a final touch.

tej
10-08-2003, 02:22 PM
your scaring me now! maybe i should go fully active!!

it seems a waste not to use the h/u internal amp, could i use this to power my tweeters? that way i can run an active 3way setup without trying to find a 6channel amp, or have to mess around with one 4chan, and one 2chan...

cheers..

Dieni
10-08-2003, 04:50 PM
Once again http://members.lycos.nl/Dodotje/smilies/pray.gif Efmax, now where I can get an RTA :rolleyes:

Bibby
10-08-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Dieni
now where I can get an RTA

Let me know when you find out, lol...:)

d4com
10-08-2003, 06:01 PM
wow that was insightfull, well wot i understud of it was anyway.
thanks a lot m8 thats helped me out.
should put that up as a sticky

tej
10-08-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by d4com
wow that was insightfull, well wot i understud of it was anyway.
thanks a lot m8 thats helped me out.
should put that up as a sticky

yeh, i think Erskine should be able to post directly into the FAQ section!! lol

Geoff B
10-08-2003, 06:33 PM
You missed one vital point out. you picked the crossovers to match the drivers you should have picked the crossovers to match the cars responce and help tame any nastys and also to match the locations the drivers will be mounted in.

For example one of the best sounding cars in the world has some very strainge crossover points if you don't take the cars responce into account.

100Hz 24dB/octave for the dash sub.
mid/bass 400Hz 6dB/octave HP and 6.3KHz LP
tweeters 6.3Khz HP.

400Hz 6dB was used to counteract a huge peak in the cars responce between 100-200Hz.

Crossover points meen nothing until you get the drivers in the car and an RTA in there too see whats happening.

EF MAX
10-08-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by tej
your scaring me now! maybe i should go fully active!!

it seems a waste not to use the h/u internal amp, could i use this to power my tweeters? that way i can run an active 3way setup without trying to find a 6channel amp, or have to mess around with one 4chan, and one 2chan...

cheers.. Using the head unit to power your tweeters is a very good way of using the power that they offer.

Also if your car is prone to ground loops or system noise,, which is often heard through the tweeters,, then this is one sure fire way to get rid of the problemm,, assuming your head unit is reasonable to start with.

An active set-up is not the be all and end all of everything,, but it sure does make life easy.

EF MAX
10-08-2003, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Dieni
Once again http://members.lycos.nl/Dodotje/smilies/pray.gif Efmax, now where I can get an RTA :rolleyes: Are you not one of our International friends,, in the sunny Med.. Malta I believe,, not sure what is available outside of the UK.

Audio Control make an Industry Standard RTA machine,, they are not cheap and for one off use may feel a bit of an expensive toy.

An Internt search should show who has got what and where and for how much.

EF MAX
10-08-2003, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by ballie
You missed one vital point out. you picked the crossovers to match the drivers you should have picked the crossovers to match the cars responce and help tame any nastys and also to match the locations the drivers will be mounted in.

Crossover points meen nothing until you get the drivers in the car and an RTA in there too see whats happening. I see what you are saying,, but too be honest the above is not the norm,, sub on the dash,, WOW..

With respect, I would argue that crossovers need to match the speakers for you are missing the point of cross overs,, to tame nasties and peaks,, this is the job of equalistaion.. I say this as if you have a peak at 400Hz that you don't like,, how can changing the cross over point get rid of it,, unless you do not cover that range of frequencies,, as at some point one of your speakers is going to venture into that range,, on the other hand an EQ can be used to tame that 400Hz peak or dip..

The bit I am angling at is not too over stretch your drive units.
I have a set of BANDOR speakers,, they boast a frequency responsce of 34Hz - 15KHz.. That is one speaker covering most of the audio range,, Now I know at below 100Hz these small speakers are struggling and at beyond 12KHz they don't really deliver the goods,, but in knowing this I can work with the best of what they have to offer.

For many people, cross-overs are used to squeeze the max out of a set of speakers when they are push on their limits.

Why buy a tweeter that can work from 2Khz - 20 Khz if you know that, that same tweeter sounds naff at 4Khz,, thus making you cross it over at say 6.3Khz,, better to buy a decent tweeter that plays sweet at 4 Khz and make better use of the wider frequency response that it offers.

The example given above, whereby there are some strange cross over points could have been resolved by using different speakers and or different speaker locations,, but as I have previously said, off axis response is an important consideration for cars..

If you know that your mids or tweets need to be on axis,, you better be getting your fibre glass kit out as well as your tape measure..

With speakers that perform better on axis,, you have too many things to go wrong,, like someone with longer legs sitting in your car and having to move the seat further back just to get into your car.

EF MAX
10-08-2003, 08:38 PM
If you take a midrange speaker and look very carefully at the material used,, you will start to understand why it has such a hard job to do.

For any midrange unit to play high frequencies with conviction,, they need to have the sort of qualities a tweeters has or is made off,, light mass,, pure material like silk or similar, to be very fast in it's response.

For the same speaker to play lower frequencies is has to have some of the qualties of a bass unit,, more mass, more control, stiffer material and the ability to handle more power.

.. So if you ask the same speaker to do everything it is hard.

BANDOR 50 This advanced miniature high fidelity loudspeaker unit, with a 50 mm anodized aluminum cone, high compliance surround and powerful magnet system, has a wide usable frequency range or 100Hz - 20kHz.

The distortion generated is down to one tenth of that produced by units of conventional design. The total moving mass is only 1.8 gm and both the cone and voice coil former are constructed from aluminum foil chosen for its light weight and high rate of restoration.

With a 19mm aluminum voice coil, and appropriate electronic filtration maximum continuous RMS power rating is 50 watts. The free air cone resonance is typically 65 Hz.

In the pursuit of the highest level of transient sounds, then moving mass, matters. The lighter the faster, the faster the sweeter, the sweeter the better. These babes have no equal to my ears. I have a set in my bedroom and a set in my living room... and now a set in my car.The average midrange is just not made to this kind of standard,, it is also a big unit and will not fit into conventional car speaker holes.

The end result of this though, is you have to chose your midrange speaker very carefully and most people don't, they pay a lot of attention to the subs and to the tweeters but not enough to the midrange or mid-bass,, and this is when cross-overs, they hope, will save them,, and it won't.

How often have you heard someone say,, your car lacks any definition in the mids,, or no mid-bass or no midrange,, it happens because people, I believe, misunderstand the role of cross over units.

Geoff B
10-08-2003, 08:57 PM
Im a bit rushed so quick responce.

As someone of your experiance you have missed the point i was trying to make IMO.

Makes no difference i quoted a car with a sub on the dash it would make no difference if he had it in the sub in the boot. We are talking about midbass and midrange incar responce not subbass i was just showing there was no speaker between them two crossover points. The cabin gain would still be there if the sub was in the boot.

Cars have a gain on frequencys all of there own that you are not allowing for with your midbass or midrange.
But as an exprianced box designer for subs im sure your aware of.
In the case of Scott buwaldas nissan his gain is most and starts at 200Hz and goes down. too smooth the responce he used the crossover. why simple its the best and simple way.
Crossovers should be used to suit the enviroment the speakers are put in and of cause to match the speakers BUT band to band crossovers is not the way to go incar. use the cars responce to your advantage. just think how understressed his MB QUart QWD160 mid/midbass is with such a crossover. meens he could use less drivers get better point source etc etc.

as a box designer you know you should design the box for the cars responce same with midbass/mids. theres is always cabin gain in these areas. use the crossover to sort it the same as you use the box design at 12dB cabin gain or what ever to get a flat responce. treat the cabin as a box. EQ should always be the last resort.

You then mension his 6Khz crosoover why this high two ressons his MB quart midbass runs very well upto nearly 8Khz and that the location of his tweekers on the A-pillars dictated a high crossover point due to the distance from his mids so his mids act more like a single point source driver and the tweeters don't cause any frequency dependent imaging problems only help lift the stage. Why did he use the a-pillars to help give extra hight he use to have them in the kicks a few years before running lower frequencys. I would not say his mids were stressed running the frequencys he uses and hes had the same set of speakers for years and years now without any problems.


You would not design a subbox for a sub to give a flat responce in open field conditions then insert it in the car just to get the cabin gain to give it a huge gains then eq them flat would you? because thats what your doing with your midbass/midrange.

I do agree that speakers should be run well within there limits but customising crossovers can help in this regard.

I know im hopless at explaining things in type so if you want this explained better contact Scott on carsounds he will explain it all to you.

Crossover points meen nothing until you sit in the car with the speakers mounted were they need to be (after weeks of angling trying different locations to get the best soundstage and imaging and finally found the best place to mount your speakers for best image/soundstage in car).you sit in there with an RTA and see what the speakers and the affects of the cabin gain have on them. then you can play with the crossovers and find what the best settings are for the combined location/speaker combination.

Crossover points meen nothing until the speakers are in the car and you can see the affect of cabin gain on them.

EF MAX
10-08-2003, 10:01 PM
Okay,, see what you are saying now,, when I first read your post I couldn't get my head around the huge gap in the frequency response.

It is still mind boggling thinking about a set-up that has no speakers to cover that 100- 400 range yet it doesn't produce a hole.

The rest of what you are saying makes perfectly good sense know that you have said a little bit more..

This sounds like a car I would just love to see and listen to if only to get my head around what has been done to it..

Geoff B
10-08-2003, 10:10 PM
There use to be a huge site dedicated to his car and hobby. With his own forum were he would explain it all.
Until it crashed big style about 6 months ago. shame really.

Until a few weeks ago very few people;) knew what crossovers he used for the resson that any judges would think rather than hear the system if you know what i meen. the crossovers dictate big hole so i must hear it sort of responce from a judge. there was no hole and this car has had nothing but praze from anyone thats got to hear it including all the experts out there.

only site with pics/info is
http://speedoptions.com/features/specials.php?specialID=5
As i said its a real shame. Scott is a very helpful friendlly person and im sure he will answer any questions you ask about his car/system.

an email between me and scott about crossover points i posted a while back is on this thread.
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8610&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

so taking this into account with his crossoverpoints you can probably see that (electircally) (what the speaker see's)and in theory it will be 6dB down at 200Hz and 12dB down at 100Hz. in reality the cars gain/cabin responce results in a very smooth transition from midrange to subbass and so the judges are non the wiser and the speakers are not strained.

basically the crossover is acting like the design of your sub box its taking into account the cars responce and giving you a flat output even though thats not what a design program or open field responce would show.

[edit]
Apart from this little detail ive brought up i agree with you totally with everything else and was impressed with your post.
You are one of the most experianced people i look upto on this forum and always look forward to reading your posts.

Geoff.

Im sorry for been hopeless at explaining this.

EF MAX
10-08-2003, 10:26 PM
Thanks for that,, the last thing I need me to be doing now is to start fiddling in my car all over again.. cheers m8.

carlo
11-08-2003, 05:33 AM
Ballie i take my hat off to you mate i think you are one of the few people who take cabin gain into account when installing:cool: